Return-Path: Delivered-To: craig@sbc-85.com Received: from gator4254.hostgator.com by gator4254.hostgator.com with LMTP id oBBJGkB68mMWIAYAcizydQ (envelope-from ) for ; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 13:36:32 -0600 Return-path: Envelope-to: craig@sbc-85.com Delivery-date: Sun, 19 Feb 2023 13:36:32 -0600 Received: from mail-lj1-f177.google.com ([209.85.208.177]:46789) by gator4254.hostgator.com with esmtps (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.95) (envelope-from ) id 1pTpU7-001jRM-5I for craig@sbc-85.com; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 13:36:32 -0600 Received: by mail-lj1-f177.google.com with SMTP id x33so1231604ljq.13 for ; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 11:36:25 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=DaSYKVti9WFQoF0gqtX08I7r9JKpeiGOyvrHqHWr0ho=; b=RW3XniL5ejlrRIH8Nj9kLie+7+FNAuOqa8baR1afg8onJYfKgEksAuR/ofePgJgFyj B3wO7WKFqjd0RXK2BK6yEnbPe10JEzxkO0PtGLWuCdD+nDFN0K69jZNPUdEftTEFzzs0 GqGwcq7ea3T3JbxlgciiV4O0r9Sol8ut//8ocerJTK5lZV09yxfJS/uaS2p7L0UoNP+G BBEW68tthlFnRUiupSy92DjH3K3uIgejoAu1sYS+D3L9bFQh5cDkkckln8fcsWr2m5BY wrJmgC/uMQNqXj1nq7Yjc969M35AzAO0NVZGuHmhAcb8IAGPyOUtajzRWoeGdFgIUld7 dBuA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=DaSYKVti9WFQoF0gqtX08I7r9JKpeiGOyvrHqHWr0ho=; b=zGQKrqjtxa8WKJo/x3luGi49z8YIgyS7hWQVvDY9p2UBp9x92TEbkg4OrO/cFnsK1X FoFJ7JxKxURImDAkZAu1HUH5dT4IeLvfbbtG7F31bR0UPMty0XyzZY96OWMJY0FHSr6A 5tBXZLzpMO08F9ZhCGTbsASiUy2p02kvL15iHYSjhIF0mR/2qLjt2558ju5lTaQrsbk7 eIRVknMqJPvF2aXtv9Kwc06N2rfS2VLyJE2v49dHq9AFOEKYsxJ9Bm1cLiGXLgxl5vFF CNLvl00aaOfyYWcmsNiMwB8EBhqobSpZmfFCcDwHxApx8Wn+zG/tKLFkOT5OMixfySdm 9SHg== X-Gm-Message-State: AO0yUKVf1j164tBh4A173q/YCKEUSGCXOnQ1kB9z5e81F6NBpcAp07MU CKEOgxPGqd4vO9j/QQ63MQlc727xAqg7gaONZzo= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AK7set+VyJVjlfVUNp0g3BmdRBo2QqERq15aemw8oXtkYDSWEIDmIppzMLJJQAxbms5Mx7av1gE+lO6EvYsrxD5WVzg= X-Received: by 2002:a05:651c:2003:b0:293:4e54:433f with SMTP id s3-20020a05651c200300b002934e54433fmr9360ljo.1.1676835378842; Sun, 19 Feb 2023 11:36:18 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <6A7E7BDD9FCB49FA98A8C58A597CA0AE@LM010> <909E53264E3C448D847C80B5D3A94279@LM010> In-Reply-To: From: Mattis Lind Date: Sun, 19 Feb 2023 20:36:05 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: intellec 8 To: Jon Hales Cc: Sid Jones , SBC-85 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000001a523a05f512a95d" X-Spam-Status: No, score=0.8 X-Spam-Score: 8 X-Spam-Bar: / X-Spam-Flag: NO --0000000000001a523a05f512a95d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello! Good that it arrived safely. I hope it works well for you as well. I am awaiting a batch of 5 small boards that is supposed to be a current loop converter for my Intellec 8. The intention is to put two of them in a small box with a rotary switch. The box would allow me to select three devices to connect to the Intellec 8. One is a regular ASR33. The second is an RS-232 connected PC or terminal and the third is a small microcontroller that also goes into the box. The microcontroller emulates a paper tape reader and emits a character as soon as the reader run signal goes active. There can be up to twelve small programs in Intel-HEX format stored in the microcontroller selectable using yet another rotary switch. We'll see if I manage to get it to work! /Mattis Den l=C3=B6r 18 feb. 2023 kl 11:21 skrev Jon Hales : > Mattis, Sid, cc Craig > > Just to let everyone know that the two extender boards were delivered thi= s > morning. They were well packed and arrived in perfect condition. > > When the weather is a bit more favourable - too dark indoors and too > blustery outdoors - I'll photograph the extenders with a couple of the > Zendex types I have for Multibus systems - there may be some ideas that y= ou > would find interesting. > > Sid: We need to discuss whether I despatch one to you or you collect it i= n > due course. > > Regards > > Jon > > On Fri, 10 Feb 2023 at 15:46, Sid Jones > wrote: > >> Would you care to send them to Mr Hales, please? >> >> His immediate need might be greater than mine =E2=80=93 I=E2=80=99ve sti= ll got to get my >> case back from the panel beater/sprayer. >> >> And build a 1702A programmer! >> >> If that=E2=80=99s OK, Jon =E2=80=93 let me know the cost and I can trans= fer money... >> >> (I=E2=80=99ve just read Jon=E2=80=99s email =E2=80=93 OK for me! Perhaps= a road trip to the East >> is called for...) >> >> Regards >> >> Sid >> >> *From:* Mattis Lind >> *Sent:* Friday, February 10, 2023 12:34 PM >> *To:* Sid Jones >> *Cc:* Jon Hales ; SBC-85 >> *Subject:* Re: intellec 8 >> >> Hello! >> >> The cheapest rate I can find is for non-traceable mail. It is 10 euros u= p >> to 500gram. Traceable small packages are 15 euros for up to 1kg. >> >> I think that two boards and some packing material would be less than 500 >> gram. >> >> /Mattis >> >> Den fre 10 feb. 2023 kl 12:43 skrev Sid Jones < >> jonesthechip@logicmagic.co.uk>: >> >>> What an excellent idea! >>> >>> I=E2=80=99d be up for that! >>> >>> In other news, I=E2=80=99m rewiring my intellec 4 mod 40 because the or= iginal >>> mains connections are just lethal... >>> >>> I=E2=80=99m adding a blanking plate across the mains outlet for an IEC = connector. >>> >>> Might be able to get more made if required? >>> >>> Also I=E2=80=99ve got some Molex connectors for the wiring harness and = I=E2=80=99m >>> looking at a crimp tool for the inserts. >>> >>> The pukka device is =C2=A3400, but cheaper equivalants are available. >>> >>> Details will be provided, but I might have the facility to terminate >>> leads for use with the original wiring connectors. >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> Sid >>> >>> >>> >>> *From:* Jon Hales >>> *Sent:* Thursday, February 09, 2023 9:26 PM >>> *To:* Sid Jones >>> *Cc:* Mattis Lind ; SBC-85 >>> *Subject:* Re: intellec 8 >>> >>> Hi Mattis >>> >>> Congratulations. I'd like to buy one. If Sid is also wanting one, I >>> suggest you mail both boards to one of us and we sort out postage in UK= . >>> >>> I think I have the socket already, but need to check the pin spacing. >>> >>> So, when you work out the cost of shipping to UK, please check it would >>> allow for two boards. >>> >>> Regards >>> >>> Jon >>> >>> On Thu, 9 Feb 2023, 20:34 Sid Jones, >>> wrote: >>> >>>> I could be very tempted... >>>> >>>> What might the shipping cost be, please? >>>> >>>> I=E2=80=99m in the UK. >>>> >>>> I will take a look at the lines and check the differences. >>>> >>>> (And where did you get the socket? Did it require a bit of pin >>>> persuasion to connect to the board?) >>>> >>>> Regards >>>> >>>> Sid >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> *From:* Mattis Lind >>>> *Sent:* Thursday, February 09, 2023 7:48 PM >>>> *To:* SBC-85 >>>> *Cc:* Sid Jones ; Jon Hales >>>> >>>> *Subject:* Re: intellec 8 >>>> >>>> Hello! >>>> >>>> I designed my own extender and it arrived today so I spent som time >>>> soldering and testing it. It looks like it works fine. But it is hard = to >>>> tell for sure since my Intellec has some kind of trouble with the fron= t >>>> panel. It behaves exactly as before though. It is just HASL. Not ENIG.= 2um >>>> ENIG was quite a lot more expensive and I wasn=E2=80=99t intending to = use it that >>>> much so I stayed at HASL. >>>> >>>> I have four more bare boards if anyone likes one. They are 10 euros >>>> plus shipping to cover my actual costs. >>>> >>>> /Mattis >>>> >>>> >>>> torsdag 2 februari 2023 skrev SBC-85 : >>>> >>>>> The backplane for the intellec 4/40 and the 8/80 are different, but t= o >>>>> my knowledge the cards are the same dimensions. a straight through >>>>> extension card should be fine, but if the 8/80 doubled up (front/back= ) >>>>> voltage rails like the +/- 12V are shorted together on the front/back= , that >>>>> would cause problems in the 4/40 where those lines are signals >>>>> >>>>> While I made the power traces wider, I did not short and solder side = / >>>>> component side traces together except possibly the ground (which I th= ink is >>>>> the same on the 4/40 and 8/80 backplane. >>>>> >>>>> I hope to get back to my intellec boards over the weekend (depending >>>>> on the weather). >>>>> >>>>> Regards >>>>> >>>>> Craig >>>>> >>>>> On Feb 1, 2023, at 1:13 AM, Sid Jones >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> =EF=BB=BF >>>>> Yup, money ain=E2=80=99t what it used to be... >>>>> >>>>> I purchased a new Series III in 1981 for about =C2=A315,000 then. (It= =E2=80=99s >>>>> still in my garage. Still waiting for it to earn its value back..) >>>>> >>>>> (But it did help pay for a slightly cheaper Porsche 944 in 1982!) >>>>> >>>>> I wonder if the intellecs used the same basic bus for 8 and 4 bit... >>>>> And extender would not need to know the actual signals. Just the conn= ector >>>>> and depth? >>>>> >>>>> Regards >>>>> >>>>> Sid >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> *From:* Jon Hales >>>>> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 31, 2023 9:22 PM >>>>> *To:* Mattis Lind >>>>> *Cc:* Sid Jones ; craig@sbc-85.com >>>>> *Subject:* Re: intellec 8 >>>>> >>>>> Hi Mattis, cc Sid and Craig. >>>>> >>>>> I was already familiar with the story about your Intellec 8/80. The >>>>> story is, as we say, 'the stuff of legends'. It's hard to imagine it = would >>>>> happen these days. In a recent VCF Forum discussion, Herb Johnson men= tioned >>>>> that your Monitor code is version 4.0 and that he and Bill Beech are >>>>> working on disassembly. The discussion is under 'Pre-Altair' and was >>>>> started by Roland Huisman some years ago. >>>>> >>>>> On the topic of what value we have attached to money at different >>>>> times, my wife and I bought our first house in UK in 1978. In that ye= ar, >>>>> the same amount of GB Pounds (same as the price of a small house for = a >>>>> family) could have bought a basic-specification MDS Series-II. This c= omes >>>>> from a copy of Intel's 1978 price lists. >>>>> >>>>> A design for a bus extender would be helpful for anyone dealing with >>>>> Intellec systems. This is particularly relevant given the Intellec >>>>> backplane slots have specific functions, so the boards cannot be move= d >>>>> around to allow signals to be probed. I'm aware that S-100 slots have >>>>> different assignments for the 2 x 50 contacts, but wouldn't an S-100 >>>>> extender have some potential? >>>>> >>>>> I have a third-party (Xentek) Multibus I extender board that was >>>>> (intended to be) fitted with relays and switches to enable or disable= power >>>>> to the board under test, as well as some multi-LED displays to provid= e a >>>>> visual indication of activity - although I should emphasise that I ha= ve >>>>> just the bare board with no documentation and no components with whic= h to >>>>> populate it. Given the capacity of today's test equipment perhaps it'= s not >>>>> of any practical benefit, but I found it interesting to think about t= he >>>>> potential of an 'advanced' bus extender. >>>>> >>>>> As I mentioned briefly, I have detailed photos of two Intellec 8/80s, >>>>> access to some documentation including schematic drawings and dumps o= f >>>>> EPROMs (from only one 8/80 and in that case held in two 2716s). Would= there >>>>> be any value in my placing these items on my Google Drive for a week = or two? >>>>> >>>>> What I don't have is software for the Intellecs. I have tried to >>>>> locate the Intel InSite library of routines, but with no success. >>>>> >>>>> Enough for now. >>>>> >>>>> All the best >>>>> >>>>> Jon >>>>> >>>>> On Tue, 31 Jan 2023 at 09:26, Mattis Lind >>>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>>> Hello everyone! >>>>>> >>>>>> A short introduction: >>>>>> >>>>>> My name is Mattis Lind, I live in Sweden and have an interest in old >>>>>> computers. My collection of various vintage computers can be seen on >>>>>> www.datormuseum.se, unfortunately not updated for quite some time. >>>>>> Almost 30 years ago I bought an Intellec 8/80 on a flea-market in >>>>>> Stockholm for the equivalent of 10 USD. It has been sitting on the s= helf >>>>>> since then and just recently I thought I should do something about i= t. My >>>>>> plan is to connect it to a teletype and perhaps run BASIC or MicroCh= ess >>>>>> just for fun. >>>>>> >>>>>> The Intellec was torn down into pieces and cleaned. Then I started t= o >>>>>> test the PSUs. The crowbar of the 5V PSU was set to trip at almost 9= V so I >>>>>> adjusted it down to a more reasonable level. Then I also found that = the 5V >>>>>> supply itself didn't regulate at all. After some head scratching I >>>>>> discovered that the driver transistor was leaky. With a new power >>>>>> transistor in place it regulated fine. I put everything together and= tried >>>>>> the machine with boards installed. >>>>>> >>>>>> The front panel was acting strangely. Under certain conditions I >>>>>> could enter data into memory and examine it, but it didn't work as w= as >>>>>> indicated in the manual. At one point it was possible to single step= a one >>>>>> instruction program that jumped back to itself. I checked the front = panel >>>>>> itself. It looked like at least all switches and LEDs were working b= ut it >>>>>> looked like there was some logic on the front panel controller in th= e bus >>>>>> that wasn't doing what it was supposed to. To get access to do measu= rements >>>>>> on the board I needed an extender board. >>>>>> >>>>>> My idea was to quickly draw one up in KiCAD. I have done quite many >>>>>> layouts in KiCAD so I wasn't expecting it to take that long. But one >>>>>> obstacle is to get the proper measurements of the size of boards and >>>>>> connectors, it takes some time to get this right and it is easy to m= ake >>>>>> mistakes. >>>>>> >>>>>> I did some googling on Intellec and found the interesting pages by >>>>>> Craig. So I contacted him on the subject of KiCAD layout for the Int= ellec >>>>>> sized PCBs. >>>>>> >>>>>> So this is the reason for ending up here! >>>>>> >>>>>> BTW I also have an Eberhard 1702 programmer and I also had problems >>>>>> with some 1702 chips. But this is my only 1702 programmer so I canno= t >>>>>> compare it with others. I thought the EPROM was marginal. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> /Mattis >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> Den m=C3=A5n 30 jan. 2023 kl 14:15 skrev Sid Jones < >>>>>> jonesthechip@logicmagic.co.uk>: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Thanks for the email, Jon. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> My intellec 4 mod 40 (S/N 027!) is getting a ground up >>>>>>> refurbishment, due to having dropped off a shelf a decade or two ag= o... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I=E2=80=99m building a high-speed tape reader simulator and I reall= y fancy a >>>>>>> crack at a home-brew 1702A programmer. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> (Stealing from the best, of course...) >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What I=E2=80=99m really missing is the paper tape RAM based assembl= er that >>>>>>> came with the box. Should have kept a copy of the tape when I left = college! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regarding the MDS systems, I=E2=80=99ve got a MDS-800 box, no termi= nal, no >>>>>>> floppy drives, but I do have a Series III and a white Series II tha= t I was >>>>>>> going to use for spares. With drives. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And a stack of floppies =E2=80=98obtained=E2=80=99 from various cli= ents. And the odd >>>>>>> intel manual or three.. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Perhaps it=E2=80=99ll be time for a visit to sunny Cambridge someti= me soon? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> And how do I join the Google group, please? These new-fangled >>>>>>> =E2=80=98social media=E2=80=99 malarkey can get past me... >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sid >>>>>>> >>>>>>> PS 70th birthday present (to myself) pictured! Rockwell Echo >>>>>>> cancelling chip with Star Trek =E2=80=98Enterprise=E2=80=99 in the = layers! Geek cred >>>>>>> squared! >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> *From:* Jon Hales >>>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, January 30, 2023 11:32 AM >>>>>>> *To:* Sid Jones >>>>>>> *Cc:* craig@sbc-85.com ; Mattis Lind >>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: intellec 8 >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Hi Sid, copied to Mattis and Craig >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Many thanks for your message. You are in a fortunate position to >>>>>>> have a 4/40. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I was planning to write to you and Mattis, copied to Craig, to >>>>>>> explain (briefly) where I'm coming from. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> About ten years ago I was looking for a 386 CPU and found an eBay >>>>>>> seller in UK offering an Intel Multibus board containing a 386 and = 387 for >>>>>>> about the amount I had expected to pay for the CPU. Fast forward to= about >>>>>>> 2020, when I bought a 386 board from Northwest Technical, which cam= e with a >>>>>>> set of original ROMs and a copy of the manual. I was able to get t= he >>>>>>> original board working by copying the ROMs. Along the way I had col= lected >>>>>>> several Intel Model 310 86/286 systems running Xenix and iRMX-86. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I realise that Mattis was even more fortunate in buying a Intellec >>>>>>> 8/80 for about the amount I paid for the 386 board. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Around seven years ago I started volunteering at the Centre for >>>>>>> Computing History in Cambridge (developing an archive of magnetic m= edia, >>>>>>> which no-one else seemed interested in preserving; I live near Camb= ridge). >>>>>>> The museum already had an Intellec 8/80. I collected another 8/80 f= rom a >>>>>>> donor who had stored a quantity of Intel development systems after = they >>>>>>> were scrapped by his employer. This gave me an opportunity to parti= ally >>>>>>> dismantle it (for cleaning and inspection) and photograph the board= s and >>>>>>> PSUs before it went to the museum. More recently, I photographed th= e boards >>>>>>> and chassis of the museum's 8/80 to copy the images to Craig. The P= ROM >>>>>>> board had been adapted to 2716s. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> The Cambridge museum has a fully-operational Apple 1 reproduction. = A >>>>>>> friend of the museum populated the board with period-correct chips = as well >>>>>>> as the PSU and adding a tape interface. I donated a Hitachi mono mo= nitor to >>>>>>> provide a display. This is a permanent exhibit, alongside an Altair= 8800, >>>>>>> an 8800b and an Imsai 8080. Unlike the Intellec 8/80s, although the= y have >>>>>>> (at least) comparable historical significance, which remain in stor= age. >>>>>>> This is the background to propose an Intellec 8/80 reproduction sys= tem for >>>>>>> the museum. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Craig's initiative is an opportunity not-to-be-missed to acquire th= e >>>>>>> basis of a reproduction Intellec. As a 'data specialist', my unders= tanding >>>>>>> of electronics is basic. However, I have had a good deal of success= at >>>>>>> building up useful systems from bare boards. I would be ready to or= ganise >>>>>>> orders from JLCPCB, with which I have an account. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Craig and I have been in contact for some time via an 'email group' >>>>>>> called Intel Devsys on Google Groups. This developed from the effor= ts of >>>>>>> Bill Beech, Richard Main and Herb Johnson (and others) to support e= fforts >>>>>>> to get MDS systems working. There are now some members of the group= in UK. >>>>>>> I have contributed disk images, based partly on the museum's collec= tion, >>>>>>> and scans of various Intel documents. Mark Ogden (ogdenpm on Github= ) has >>>>>>> done much to organise the collection of software and manuals. Altho= ugh the >>>>>>> emphasis has been mainly on Series II MDS systems, it would appear = a good >>>>>>> approach to suggest you both join this group. As well as providing = support >>>>>>> to each other, the group has been successful at bringing together >>>>>>> information on Bill Beech's Google Drive. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Sid: I know someone who built himself a Martin Eberhard programmer >>>>>>> for 1702s. I could put you in touch with him if you want an easy wa= y to get >>>>>>> code into these chips. (I know, it would be better to do this via a= n >>>>>>> Intellec or a iUP-103 Universal Programmer with the appropriate int= erface - >>>>>>> I have an iUP-103, but it's only equipped for 2716s). >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Best regards >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Jon >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Mon, 30 Jan 2023 at 10:34, Sid Jones < >>>>>>> jonesthechip@logicmagic.co.uk> wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Thanks for the update! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> FYI: I=E2=80=99m refurbishing an intel intellec 4/40 that I used i= n college >>>>>>>> between 1974-1977. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> And the mission creep sets in, so I have to build a RS232-20 mA >>>>>>>> current loop interface and a 1702A EPROM programmer. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Use a 2372A board with flying leads to drop into the ROM monitor >>>>>>>> socket, to get over the bit rot in the original 1702A devices unti= l I can >>>>>>>> programme some more!. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> BTW: I have a source of 1702A =E2=80=98new, old stock=E2=80=99 EPR= OMs in Sweden. A >>>>>>>> nice gentleman called Bjorn Lundin has a stash of 500+ !!! >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This will be after the case has been cleaned, de-bent and >>>>>>>> repainted. Small accident in the 1990=E2=80=99s involving a weak s= helf and >>>>>>>> gravity... >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I do have a spare set of 4040/4289(?) and 4201 devices from the un= i >>>>>>>> project and after being inspired by Craig=E2=80=99s work, I=E2=80= =99m giving some thought >>>>>>>> to a =E2=80=98new=E2=80=99 CPU board for the 4040. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Replace the 4x1702A with a 2732A, modern logic rather than the >>>>>>>> electron guzzling 3205 and other devices, socket everything and ma= ke a new >>>>>>>> drop-in board for my intel box. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Madness, or what? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Regards >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Sid >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *From:* craig@sbc-85.com >>>>>>>> *Sent:* Sunday, January 29, 2023 11:25 PM >>>>>>>> *To:* 'Jon Hales' ; 'Mattis Lind' >>>>>>>> ; 'Sid Jones' >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> *Subject:* intellec 8 >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Hi Jon, Mattis, & Sid >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I am not sure you are all aware of each other yet=E2=80=A6 but I t= hink >>>>>>>> everyone has some level of interest in making one or more of the >>>>>>>> reproduction boards for the intellect and, since you are somewhat = close >>>>>>>> together, it may make sense to order boards directly from the boar= d house >>>>>>>> and redistribute amongst yourselves. Sid and Jon are in the UK, M= attis is >>>>>>>> in Sweden=E2=80=94two of my favorite countries to visit by the way= . >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> As for the boards, I have been distracted lately but hope to get >>>>>>>> back to get them fully tested. the PROM, RAM, Motherboard, and 80= 08 CPU >>>>>>>> all look OK, I need to build and test the 8080 CPU and a simple ca= rd >>>>>>>> extender board. I haven=E2=80=99t even started a front panel boar= d or either of >>>>>>>> the I/O boards and have no intention yet to make the eprom program= ming >>>>>>>> board. I expect the remaining boards may continue to drag out, or= maybe >>>>>>>> someone else will decide to make them before me. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> If Sid and Mattis have not joined the intel development google >>>>>>>> group, that remains to be the most centralized and deepest well of >>>>>>>> information. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> regards to all, >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> craig >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> --0000000000001a523a05f512a95d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello!

Good that it arrived safely. I h= ope it works well for you as well.=C2=A0

I am awai= ting a batch of 5 small boards that is supposed to be a current loop conver= ter for my Intellec=C2=A08. The intention is to put two of them in a small = box with a rotary=C2=A0switch. The box would allow me to select three devic= es to connect to the Intellec=C2=A08. One is a regular ASR33. The second is= an RS-232 connected PC or terminal and the third is a small microcontrolle= r that also goes into the box. The microcontroller emulates a paper tape re= ader and emits a character as soon as the reader run signal goes active. Th= ere can be up to twelve small programs in Intel-HEX format stored in the mi= crocontroller selectable using yet another rotary=C2=A0switch.=C2=A0
<= div>
We'll see if I manage to get it to work!
<= br>

/Mattis

Den l=C3=B6r 18 feb. 2023 kl 11:2= 1 skrev Jon Hales <jonhales@gmail.= com>:
Mattis, Sid, c= c Craig

Just to let everyone know that the two extender= boards were delivered this morning. They were well packed and arrived in p= erfect condition.

When the weather is a bit more favoura= ble - too dark indoors and too blustery outdoors - I'll photograph the = extenders with a couple of the Zendex types I have for Multibus systems - t= here may be some ideas that you would find interesting.

<= div>Sid: We need to discuss whether I despatch one to you or you collect it= in due course.

Regards

J= on

On Fri, 10 Feb 2023 at 15:46, Sid Jones <jonesthechip@logicmagic= .co.uk> wrote:
Would you care to send them to Mr Hales, please?
=C2=A0
His immediate need might be greater than mine =E2=80=93 I=E2=80=99ve s= till got to get my=20 case back from the panel beater/sprayer.
=C2=A0
And build a 1702A programmer!
=C2=A0
If that=E2=80=99s OK, Jon =E2=80=93 let me know the cost and I can tra= nsfer money...
=C2=A0
(I=E2=80=99ve just read Jon=E2=80=99s email =E2=80=93 OK for me! Perha= ps a road trip to the East is=20 called for...)
=C2=A0
Regards
=C2=A0
Sid
=C2=A0
Sent: Friday, February 10, 2023 12:34 PM
Subject: Re: intellec 8
=C2=A0
Hello!=20
=C2=A0
The cheapest rate I can find is for non-traceable mail. It is 10 euros= up=20 to 500gram. Traceable small packages are 15 euros for up to 1kg.
=C2=A0
I think that two boards and some packing material would be less than 5= 00=20 gram.
=C2=A0
/Mattis
=C2=A0
Den fre 10 feb. 2023 kl 12:43 skrev S= id Jones=20 <jone= sthechip@logicmagic.co.uk>:
What an excellent idea!
=C2=A0
I=E2=80=99d be up for that!
=C2=A0
In other news, I=E2=80=99m rewiring my intellec 4 mod 40 because the= original=20 mains connections are just lethal...
=C2=A0
I=E2=80=99m adding a blanking plate across the mains outlet for an I= EC=20 connector.
=C2=A0
Might be able to get more made if required?
=C2=A0
Also I=E2=80=99ve got some Molex connectors for the wiring harness a= nd I=E2=80=99m=20 looking at a crimp tool for the inserts.
=C2=A0
The pukka device is =C2=A3400, but cheaper equivalants are available= .
=C2=A0
Details will be provided, but I might have the facility to terminate= =20 leads for use with the original wiring connectors.
=C2=A0
Regards
=C2=A0
Sid
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
From: Jon Hales
Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2023 9:26 PM
Subject: Re: intellec 8
=C2=A0
Hi Mattis=20
=C2=A0
Congratulations. I'd like to buy one. If Sid is also wanting one= , I=20 suggest you mail both boards to one of us and we sort out postage in UK.<= /div>
=C2=A0
I think I have the socket already, but need to check the pin=20 spacing.
=C2=A0
So, when you work out the cost of shipping to UK, please check it wo= uld=20 allow for two boards.
=C2=A0
Regards
=C2=A0
Jon
=C2=A0
On Thu, 9 Feb 2023, 20:34 Sid Jones= , <jo= nesthechip@logicmagic.co.uk> wrote:
I could be very tempted...
=C2=A0
What might the shipping cost be, please?
=C2=A0
I=E2=80=99m in the UK.
=C2=A0
I will take a look at the lines and check the differences.
=C2=A0
(And where did you get the socket? Did it require a bit of pin=20 persuasion to connect to the board?)
=C2=A0
Regards
=C2=A0
Sid
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Sent: Thursday, February 09, 2023 7:48 PM
To: SBC-85
Subject: Re: intellec 8
=C2=A0
Hello= !=20
=C2=A0
I designed my own extender and it arrived today so I spent som tim= e=20 soldering and testing it. It looks like it works fine. But it is hard t= o=20 tell for sure since my Intellec has some kind of trouble with the front= =20 panel. It behaves exactly as before though. It is just HASL. Not ENIG. = 2um=20 ENIG was quite a lot more expensive and I wasn=E2=80=99t intending to u= se it that=20 much so I stayed at HASL.
=C2=A0
I have four more bare boards if anyone likes one.=C2=A0 They are 1= 0=20 euros plus shipping to cover my actual costs.
=C2=A0
/Mattis


torsdag 2 februari 2023 skrev SBC-85 <craig@sbc-85.com>:
The backplane for the intellec 4/40 and the 8/80 are= =20 different, but to my knowledge the cards are the same dimensions.=C2= =A0 a=20 straight through extension card should be fine, but if the 8/80 doubl= ed up=20 (front/back) voltage rails like the +/- 12V are shorted together on t= he=20 front/back, that would cause problems in the 4/40 where those lines a= re=20 signals
=C2=A0
While I made the power traces wider, I did not short= and=20 solder side / component side traces together except possibly the grou= nd=20 (which I think is the same on the 4/40 and 8/80 backplane.
=C2=A0
I hope to get back to my intellec boards over the we= ekend=20 (depending on the weather).
=C2=A0
Regards
=C2=A0
Craig
=EF=BB=BF=20
Yup, money ain=E2=80=99t what it used to be...
=C2=A0
I purchased a new Series III in 1981 for about =C2=A315,000 th= en. (It=E2=80=99s=20 still in my garage. Still waiting for it to earn its value back..)<= /div>
=C2=A0
(But it did help pay for a slightly cheaper Porsche 944 in=20 1982!)
=C2=A0
I wonder if the intellecs used the same basic bus for 8 and 4= =20 bit... And extender would not need to know the actual signals. Just= the=20 connector and depth?
=C2=A0
Regards
=C2=A0
Sid
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Sent: Tuesday, January 31, 2023 9:22 PM
Subject: Re: intellec 8
=C2=A0
Hi Mattis, cc Sid and Craig.=20
=C2=A0
I was already familiar with the story about your Intellec 8/80= . The=20 story is, as we say, 'the stuff of legends'. It's hard = to imagine it=20 would happen these days. In a recent VCF Forum discussion, Herb Joh= nson=20 mentioned that your Monitor code is version 4.0 and that he and Bil= l=20 Beech are working on disassembly. The discussion is under 'Pre-= Altair'=20 and was started by Roland Huisman some years ago.
=C2=A0
On the topic of what value we have attached to money at differ= ent=20 times, my wife and I bought our first house in UK in 1978. In that = year,=20 the same amount of GB Pounds (same as the price of a small house fo= r a=20 family) could have bought a basic-specification MDS Series-II. This= =20 comes from a copy of Intel's 1978 price lists.
=C2=A0
A design for a bus extender would be helpful for anyone dealin= g=20 with Intellec systems. This is particularly relevant given the Inte= llec=20 backplane slots have specific functions, so the boards cannot be mo= ved=20 around to allow signals to be probed. I'm aware that S-100 slot= s have=20 different assignments for the 2 x 50 contacts, but wouldn't an = S-100=20 extender have some potential?
=C2=A0
I have a third-party (Xentek) Multibus I extender board that w= as=20 (intended to be) fitted with relays and switches to enable or disab= le=20 power to the board under test, as well as some multi-LED displays t= o=20 provide a visual indication of activity - although I should emphasi= se=20 that I have just the bare board with no documentation and no compon= ents=20 with which to populate it. Given the capacity of today's test e= quipment=20 perhaps it's not of any practical benefit, but I found it inter= esting to=20 think about the potential of an 'advanced' bus extender.
=C2=A0
As I mentioned briefly, I have detailed photos of two Intellec= =20 8/80s, access to some documentation including schematic drawings an= d=20 dumps of EPROMs (from only one 8/80 and in that case held in two 27= 16s).=20 Would there be any value in my placing these items on my Google Dri= ve=20 for a week or two?
=C2=A0
What I don't have is software for the Intellecs. I have tr= ied to=20 locate the Intel InSite library of routines, but with no success. <= /div>
=C2=A0
Enough for now.
=C2=A0
All the best
=C2=A0
Jon
=C2=A0
On Tue, 31 Jan 2023 at 09:26,= Mattis Lind=20 <mattislind@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello everyone!=20
=C2=A0
A short introduction:
=C2=A0
My name is Mattis Lind, I live in Sweden and have an interes= t in=20 old computers. My collection of various vintage computers can be = seen=20 on www.datormuseum.se, unfortunately not updated for=20 quite some time.
Almost 30 years ago I bought an Intellec 8/80 on a flea-mark= et in=20 Stockholm for the equivalent of 10 USD. It has been sitting on th= e=20 shelf since then and just recently I thought I should do somethin= g=20 about it. My plan is to connect it to a teletype and perhaps run = BASIC=20 or MicroChess just for fun.
=C2=A0
The Intellec was torn down into pieces and cleaned. Then I= =20 started to test the PSUs. The crowbar of the 5V PSU was set to tr= ip at=20 almost 9V so I adjusted it down to a more reasonable level. Then = I=20 also found that the 5V supply itself didn't regulate at all. = After=20 some head scratching I discovered that the driver transistor was= =20 leaky. With a new power transistor in place it regulated fine. I = put=20 everything together and tried the machine with boards installed.= =20
=C2=A0
The front panel was acting strangely. Under certain conditio= ns I=20 could enter data into memory and examine it, but it didn't wo= rk as was=20 indicated in the manual. At one point it was possible to single s= tep a=20 one instruction program that jumped back to itself. I checked the= =20 front=C2=A0 panel itself. It looked like at least all switches an= d=20 LEDs were working but it looked like there was some logic on the = front=20 panel controller in the bus that wasn't doing what it was sup= posed to.=20 To get access to do measurements on the=C2=A0 board I needed an= =20 extender board.
=C2=A0
My idea was to quickly draw one up in KiCAD. I have done qui= te=20 many layouts in KiCAD so I wasn't expecting it to take that l= ong. But=20 one obstacle is to get the proper measurements of the size of boa= rds=20 and connectors, it takes some time to get this right and it is ea= sy to=20 make mistakes.
=C2=A0
I did some googling on Intellec and found the interesting pa= ges=20 by Craig. So I contacted him on the subject of KiCAD layout for t= he=20 Intellec sized PCBs.
=C2=A0
So this is the reason for ending up here!
=C2=A0
BTW I also have an Eberhard 1702 programmer and I also had= =20 problems with some 1702 chips. But this is my only 1702 programme= r so=20 I cannot compare it with others. I thought the EPROM was=20 marginal.
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
/Mattis
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Den m=C3=A5n 30 jan. 2023 k= l 14:15 skrev Sid=20 Jones <jonesthechip@logicmagic.co.uk>:
Thanks for the email, Jon.
=C2=A0
My intellec 4 mod 40 (S/N 027!) is getting a ground up=20 refurbishment, due to having dropped off a shelf a decade or tw= o=20 ago...
=C2=A0
I=E2=80=99m building a high-speed tape reader simulator an= d I really=20 fancy a crack at a home-brew 1702A programmer.
=C2=A0
(Stealing from the best, of course...)
=C2=A0
What I=E2=80=99m really missing is the paper tape RAM base= d assembler=20 that came with the box. Should have kept a copy of the tape whe= n I=20 left college!
=C2=A0
Regarding the MDS systems, I=E2=80=99ve got a MDS-800 box,= no terminal,=20 no floppy drives, but I do have a Series III and a white Series= II=20 that I was going to use for spares. With drives.
=C2=A0
And a stack of floppies =E2=80=98obtained=E2=80=99 from va= rious clients. And=20 the odd intel manual or three..
=C2=A0
Perhaps it=E2=80=99ll be time for a visit to sunny Cambrid= ge sometime=20 soon?
=C2=A0
And how do I join the Google group, please? These new-fang= led=20 =E2=80=98social media=E2=80=99 malarkey can get past me...
=C2=A0
Regards
=C2=A0
Sid
=C2=A0
PS 70th birthday present (to myself) pictured! Rockwell Ec= ho=20 cancelling chip with Star Trek =E2=80=98Enterprise=E2=80=99 in = the layers! Geek cred=20 squared!
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2023 11:32 AM
Subject: Re: intellec 8
=C2=A0
Hi Sid, copied to Mattis and Craig=20
=C2=A0
Many thanks for your message. You are in a fortunate posit= ion=20 to have a 4/40.
=C2=A0
I was planning to write to you and Mattis, copied to Craig= , to=20 explain (briefly) where I'm coming from.
=C2=A0
About ten years ago I was looking for a 386 CPU and found = an=20 eBay seller in UK offering an Intel Multibus board containing a= 386=20 and 387 for about the amount I had expected to pay for the CPU.= Fast=20 forward to about 2020, when I bought a 386 board from Northwest= =20 Technical, which came with a set of original=C2=A0 ROMs and a c= opy=20 of the manual. I was able to get the original board working by= =20 copying the ROMs. Along the way I had collected several Intel M= odel=20 310 86/286 systems running Xenix= and iRMX-86.
=C2=A0
I realise that Mattis was even more fortunate in buying a= =20 Intellec 8/80 for about the amount I paid for the 386 board.
=C2=A0
Around seven years ago I started volunteering at the Centr= e for=20 Computing History in Cambridge (developing an archive of magnet= ic=20 media, which no-one else seemed interested in preserving; I liv= e=20 near Cambridge). The museum already had an Intellec 8/80. I=20 collected another 8/80 from a donor who had stored a quantity o= f=20 Intel development systems after they were scrapped by his emplo= yer.=20 This gave me an opportunity to partially dismantle it (for clea= ning=20 and inspection) and photograph the boards and PSUs before it we= nt to=20 the museum. More recently, I photographed the boards and chassi= s of=20 the museum's 8/80 to copy the images to Craig. The PROM boa= rd had=20 been adapted to 2716s.
=C2=A0
The Cambridge museum has a fully-operational Apple 1=20 reproduction. A friend of the museum populated the board with= =20 period-correct chips as well as the PSU and adding a tape inter= face.=20 I donated a Hitachi mono monitor to provide a display. This is = a=20 permanent exhibit, alongside an Altair 8800, an 8800b and an Im= sai=20 8080. Unlike the Intellec 8/80s, although they have (at least)= =20 comparable historical significance, which remain in storage. Th= is is=20 the background to propose an Intellec 8/80 reproduction system = for=20 the museum.
=C2=A0
Craig's initiative is an opportunity not-to-be-missed = to=20 acquire the basis of a reproduction Intellec. As a 'data=20 specialist', my understanding of electronics is basic. Howe= ver, I=20 have had a good deal of success at building up useful systems f= rom=20 bare boards. I would be ready to organise orders from JLCPCB, w= ith=20 which I have an account.
=C2=A0
Craig and I have been in contact for some time via an '= ;email=20 group' called Intel Devsys on Google Groups. This developed= from the=20 efforts of Bill Beech, Richard Main and Herb Johnson (and other= s) to=20 support efforts to get MDS systems working. There are now some= =20 members of the group in UK. I have contributed disk images, bas= ed=20 partly on the museum's collection, and scans of various Int= el=20 documents. Mark Ogden (ogdenpm on Github) has done much to orga= nise=20 the collection of software and manuals. Although the emphasis h= as=20 been mainly on Series II MDS systems, it would appear a good=20 approach to suggest you both join this group. As well as provid= ing=20 support to each other, the group has been successful at bringin= g=20 together information on Bill Beech's Google Drive.
=C2=A0
Sid: I know someone who built himself a Martin Eberhard=20 programmer for 1702s. I could put you in touch with him if you = want=20 an easy way to get code into these chips. (I know, it would be= =20 better to do this via an Intellec or a iUP-103 Universal Progra= mmer=20 with the appropriate interface - I have an iUP-103, but it'= s only=20 equipped for 2716s).
=C2=A0
Best regards
=C2=A0
Jon
=C2=A0
On Mon, 30 Jan 2023 at 10= :34, Sid=20 Jones <jonesthechip@logicmagic.co.uk>=20 wrote:
Thanks for the update!
=C2=A0
FYI: I=E2=80=99m refurbishing an intel intellec 4/40 tha= t I used in=20 college between 1974-1977.
=C2=A0
And the mission creep sets in, so I have to build a RS23= 2-20=20 mA current loop interface and a 1702A EPROM programmer.
=C2=A0
Use a 2372A board with flying leads to drop into the ROM= =20 monitor socket, to get over the bit rot in the original 1702A= =20 devices until I can programme some more!.
=C2=A0
BTW: I have a source of 1702A =E2=80=98new, old stock=E2= =80=99 EPROMs in=20 Sweden. A nice gentleman called Bjorn Lundin has a stash of 5= 00+=20 !!!
=C2=A0
This will be after the case has been cleaned, de-bent an= d=20 repainted. Small accident in the 1990=E2=80=99s involving a w= eak shelf and=20 gravity...
=C2=A0
I do have a spare set of 4040/4289(?) and 4201 devices f= rom=20 the uni project and after being inspired by Craig=E2=80=99s w= ork, I=E2=80=99m=20 giving some thought to a =E2=80=98new=E2=80=99 CPU board for = the 4040.
=C2=A0
Replace the 4x1702A with a 2732A, modern logic rather th= an=20 the electron guzzling 3205 and other devices, socket everythi= ng=20 and make a new drop-in board for my intel box.
=C2=A0
Madness, or what?
=C2=A0
Regards
=C2=A0
Sid
=C2=A0

Hi Jon, Mattis, & Sid

=C2=A0

I am not sure you are all aware of eac= h other=20 yet=E2=80=A6 but I think everyone has some level of interest = in making one=20 or more of the reproduction boards for the intellect and, sin= ce=20 you are somewhat close together, it may make sense to order b= oards=20 directly from the board house and redistribute amongst=20 yourselves.=C2=A0 Sid and Jon are in the UK, Mattis is in=20 Sweden=E2=80=94two of my favorite countries to visit by the= =20 way.

=C2=A0

As for the boards, I have been distrac= ted=20 lately but hope to get back to get them fully tested.=C2=A0 t= he=20 PROM, RAM, Motherboard, and 8008 CPU all look OK, I need to b= uild=20 and test the 8080 CPU and a simple card extender board.=C2=A0= I=20 haven=E2=80=99t even started a front panel board or either of= the I/O=20 boards and have no intention yet to make the eprom programmin= g=20 board.=C2=A0 I expect the remaining boards may continue to dr= ag=20 out, or maybe someone else will decide to make them before=20 me.

=C2=A0

If Sid and Mattis have not joined the = intel=20 development google group, that remains to be the most central= ized=20 and deepest well of information.

=C2=A0

regards to all,

=C2=A0

craig

=
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