Return-Path: Delivered-To: craig@sbc-85.com Received: from gator4254.hostgator.com by gator4254.hostgator.com with LMTP id MHrLIO/e2GMX9wUAcizydQ (envelope-from ) for ; Tue, 31 Jan 2023 03:27:11 -0600 Return-path: Envelope-to: craig@sbc-85.com Delivery-date: Tue, 31 Jan 2023 03:27:11 -0600 Received: from mail-lf1-f44.google.com ([209.85.167.44]:37791) by gator4254.hostgator.com with esmtps (TLS1.2) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.95) (envelope-from ) id 1pMmv0-001rj9-Me for craig@sbc-85.com; Tue, 31 Jan 2023 03:27:11 -0600 Received: by mail-lf1-f44.google.com with SMTP id br9so23305819lfb.4 for ; Tue, 31 Jan 2023 01:27:05 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=aCY95pC1epoQj4u+X1nvS/pXKhC1tJpplna0zxykOfI=; b=Gi6pSZ2E3/k3XXz7DwYaELPtNy1V5bz2xIz0JJClY2USZN1zweEkANbPfP46AzdP51 OWiD5fjIZQkxvg08HgqTbNzDIKCo4egq3QrfQjvY2rfAb8DxplvkjO7U3cYCORs2/9vf DHNNBh4je69rVWwB6dZSafhM7dxFYR0nNn9MJ2CFd2X0SPelsRgGSJ8RbQv+PPQLH5ao E4Vltri4i/08AuOEN5TEfS2No744Mg1sAt+eBLqSO/y4h19rPeawkarVSD8c7s+lVYDR PtZBhG3Hi3PFQdyrOfBbzos9uv1jC9aeMI0d6kk8wKVIo/t6dWt29vJxlYW67jebH9EJ pMrA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=cc:to:subject:message-id:date:from:in-reply-to:references :mime-version:x-gm-message-state:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=aCY95pC1epoQj4u+X1nvS/pXKhC1tJpplna0zxykOfI=; b=7d/X4uOvc2JjbHkaJV9hf/H0etkdWCuMirm1IVUxLb0gRc1DIiOw/fJOpI+VJsq5/v p/611wL8vQO+2HTbRgTifaMjcp+Zq8SWq/L4eQok9hErfmM1vGwKfgvUNeV8mf5gkhp/ exqqAJ/sA7hktrtDUN8WbPFaJh6NmLj5dLU/NIuhdU8Bv96t69jCx8jekzUTgHrKUlcX e2gtAQH/5UCqXskjvlSAADS2Wb723tcOGqlHINFTWeAjoDQ4LiPS7D8Y3pZOEDCCF1fn 5AQyDni2yxQnuqU8GdYHNVfHA/Qknzcf0g7YR3EhdWzHgokGczpkAy1RwvAmY40da9ix zKzA== X-Gm-Message-State: AFqh2krv8mqvgjLjT/eWK+tCq2tJu1kepAo2n9zMSDCQVdb526T6xP/+ 6oj4Ewbp6E7F6Q02kxOc8KiruGRf5bcU0xX5UiM= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AMrXdXukiwuW9clDL7tHFYEtQMZKTqfi0Y4ImwGw8Z4NMgRZkdQujP9yPa4sV3xKHpdFZxiLJLNpWdtT/sJlMAjQw/w= X-Received: by 2002:ac2:5451:0:b0:4cc:971c:b3f6 with SMTP id d17-20020ac25451000000b004cc971cb3f6mr7007818lfn.77.1675157218260; Tue, 31 Jan 2023 01:26:58 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <06c501d93439$049d7af0$0dd870d0$@sbc-85.com> <55DEEF56EF694997B656A0FC7A83E98C@LM010> In-Reply-To: From: Mattis Lind Date: Tue, 31 Jan 2023 10:26:46 +0100 Message-ID: Subject: Re: intellec 8 To: Sid Jones Cc: Jon Hales , craig@sbc-85.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000effa7a05f38beefd" X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.2 X-Spam-Score: -1 X-Spam-Bar: / X-Spam-Flag: NO --000000000000effa7a05f38beefd Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hello everyone! A short introduction: My name is Mattis Lind, I live in Sweden and have an interest in old computers. My collection of various vintage computers can be seen on www.datormuseum.se, unfortunately not updated for quite some time. Almost 30 years ago I bought an Intellec 8/80 on a flea-market in Stockholm for the equivalent of 10 USD. It has been sitting on the shelf since then and just recently I thought I should do something about it. My plan is to connect it to a teletype and perhaps run BASIC or MicroChess just for fun. The Intellec was torn down into pieces and cleaned. Then I started to test the PSUs. The crowbar of the 5V PSU was set to trip at almost 9V so I adjusted it down to a more reasonable level. Then I also found that the 5V supply itself didn't regulate at all. After some head scratching I discovered that the driver transistor was leaky. With a new power transistor in place it regulated fine. I put everything together and tried the machine with boards installed. The front panel was acting strangely. Under certain conditions I could enter data into memory and examine it, but it didn't work as was indicated in the manual. At one point it was possible to single step a one instruction program that jumped back to itself. I checked the front panel itself. It looked like at least all switches and LEDs were working but it looked like there was some logic on the front panel controller in the bus that wasn't doing what it was supposed to. To get access to do measurements on the board I needed an extender board. My idea was to quickly draw one up in KiCAD. I have done quite many layouts in KiCAD so I wasn't expecting it to take that long. But one obstacle is to get the proper measurements of the size of boards and connectors, it takes some time to get this right and it is easy to make mistakes. I did some googling on Intellec and found the interesting pages by Craig. So I contacted him on the subject of KiCAD layout for the Intellec sized PCBs. So this is the reason for ending up here! BTW I also have an Eberhard 1702 programmer and I also had problems with some 1702 chips. But this is my only 1702 programmer so I cannot compare it with others. I thought the EPROM was marginal. /Mattis Den m=C3=A5n 30 jan. 2023 kl 14:15 skrev Sid Jones : > Thanks for the email, Jon. > > My intellec 4 mod 40 (S/N 027!) is getting a ground up refurbishment, due > to having dropped off a shelf a decade or two ago... > > I=E2=80=99m building a high-speed tape reader simulator and I really fanc= y a crack > at a home-brew 1702A programmer. > > (Stealing from the best, of course...) > > What I=E2=80=99m really missing is the paper tape RAM based assembler tha= t came > with the box. Should have kept a copy of the tape when I left college! > > Regarding the MDS systems, I=E2=80=99ve got a MDS-800 box, no terminal, n= o floppy > drives, but I do have a Series III and a white Series II that I was going > to use for spares. With drives. > > And a stack of floppies =E2=80=98obtained=E2=80=99 from various clients. = And the odd intel > manual or three.. > > Perhaps it=E2=80=99ll be time for a visit to sunny Cambridge sometime soo= n? > > And how do I join the Google group, please? These new-fangled =E2=80=98so= cial > media=E2=80=99 malarkey can get past me... > > Regards > > Sid > > PS 70th birthday present (to myself) pictured! Rockwell Echo cancelling > chip with Star Trek =E2=80=98Enterprise=E2=80=99 in the layers! Geek cred= squared! > > > > *From:* Jon Hales > *Sent:* Monday, January 30, 2023 11:32 AM > *To:* Sid Jones > *Cc:* craig@sbc-85.com ; Mattis Lind > *Subject:* Re: intellec 8 > > Hi Sid, copied to Mattis and Craig > > Many thanks for your message. You are in a fortunate position to have a > 4/40. > > I was planning to write to you and Mattis, copied to Craig, to explain > (briefly) where I'm coming from. > > About ten years ago I was looking for a 386 CPU and found an eBay seller > in UK offering an Intel Multibus board containing a 386 and 387 for about > the amount I had expected to pay for the CPU. Fast forward to about 2020, > when I bought a 386 board from Northwest Technical, which came with a set > of original ROMs and a copy of the manual. I was able to get the origina= l > board working by copying the ROMs. Along the way I had collected several > Intel Model 310 86/286 systems running Xenix and iRMX-86. > > I realise that Mattis was even more fortunate in buying a Intellec 8/80 > for about the amount I paid for the 386 board. > > Around seven years ago I started volunteering at the Centre for Computing > History in Cambridge (developing an archive of magnetic media, which no-o= ne > else seemed interested in preserving; I live near Cambridge). The museum > already had an Intellec 8/80. I collected another 8/80 from a donor who h= ad > stored a quantity of Intel development systems after they were scrapped b= y > his employer. This gave me an opportunity to partially dismantle it (for > cleaning and inspection) and photograph the boards and PSUs before it wen= t > to the museum. More recently, I photographed the boards and chassis of th= e > museum's 8/80 to copy the images to Craig. The PROM board had been adapte= d > to 2716s. > > The Cambridge museum has a fully-operational Apple 1 reproduction. A > friend of the museum populated the board with period-correct chips as wel= l > as the PSU and adding a tape interface. I donated a Hitachi mono monitor = to > provide a display. This is a permanent exhibit, alongside an Altair 8800, > an 8800b and an Imsai 8080. Unlike the Intellec 8/80s, although they have > (at least) comparable historical significance, which remain in storage. > This is the background to propose an Intellec 8/80 reproduction system fo= r > the museum. > > Craig's initiative is an opportunity not-to-be-missed to acquire the basi= s > of a reproduction Intellec. As a 'data specialist', my understanding of > electronics is basic. However, I have had a good deal of success at > building up useful systems from bare boards. I would be ready to organise > orders from JLCPCB, with which I have an account. > > Craig and I have been in contact for some time via an 'email group' calle= d > Intel Devsys on Google Groups. This developed from the efforts of Bill > Beech, Richard Main and Herb Johnson (and others) to support efforts to g= et > MDS systems working. There are now some members of the group in UK. I hav= e > contributed disk images, based partly on the museum's collection, and sca= ns > of various Intel documents. Mark Ogden (ogdenpm on Github) has done much = to > organise the collection of software and manuals. Although the emphasis ha= s > been mainly on Series II MDS systems, it would appear a good approach to > suggest you both join this group. As well as providing support to each > other, the group has been successful at bringing together information on > Bill Beech's Google Drive. > > Sid: I know someone who built himself a Martin Eberhard programmer for > 1702s. I could put you in touch with him if you want an easy way to get > code into these chips. (I know, it would be better to do this via an > Intellec or a iUP-103 Universal Programmer with the appropriate interface= - > I have an iUP-103, but it's only equipped for 2716s). > > Best regards > > Jon > > On Mon, 30 Jan 2023 at 10:34, Sid Jones > wrote: > >> Thanks for the update! >> >> FYI: I=E2=80=99m refurbishing an intel intellec 4/40 that I used in coll= ege >> between 1974-1977. >> >> And the mission creep sets in, so I have to build a RS232-20 mA current >> loop interface and a 1702A EPROM programmer. >> >> Use a 2372A board with flying leads to drop into the ROM monitor socket, >> to get over the bit rot in the original 1702A devices until I can progra= mme >> some more!. >> >> BTW: I have a source of 1702A =E2=80=98new, old stock=E2=80=99 EPROMs in= Sweden. A nice >> gentleman called Bjorn Lundin has a stash of 500+ !!! >> >> This will be after the case has been cleaned, de-bent and repainted. >> Small accident in the 1990=E2=80=99s involving a weak shelf and gravity.= .. >> >> I do have a spare set of 4040/4289(?) and 4201 devices from the uni >> project and after being inspired by Craig=E2=80=99s work, I=E2=80=99m gi= ving some thought >> to a =E2=80=98new=E2=80=99 CPU board for the 4040. >> >> Replace the 4x1702A with a 2732A, modern logic rather than the electron >> guzzling 3205 and other devices, socket everything and make a new drop-i= n >> board for my intel box. >> >> Madness, or what? >> >> Regards >> >> Sid >> >> *From:* craig@sbc-85.com >> *Sent:* Sunday, January 29, 2023 11:25 PM >> *To:* 'Jon Hales' ; 'Mattis Lind' >> ; 'Sid Jones' >> *Subject:* intellec 8 >> >> >> Hi Jon, Mattis, & Sid >> >> >> >> I am not sure you are all aware of each other yet=E2=80=A6 but I think e= veryone >> has some level of interest in making one or more of the reproduction boa= rds >> for the intellect and, since you are somewhat close together, it may mak= e >> sense to order boards directly from the board house and redistribute >> amongst yourselves. Sid and Jon are in the UK, Mattis is in Sweden=E2= =80=94two of >> my favorite countries to visit by the way. >> >> >> >> As for the boards, I have been distracted lately but hope to get back to >> get them fully tested. the PROM, RAM, Motherboard, and 8008 CPU all loo= k >> OK, I need to build and test the 8080 CPU and a simple card extender >> board. I haven=E2=80=99t even started a front panel board or either of = the I/O >> boards and have no intention yet to make the eprom programming board. I >> expect the remaining boards may continue to drag out, or maybe someone e= lse >> will decide to make them before me. >> >> >> >> If Sid and Mattis have not joined the intel development google group, >> that remains to be the most centralized and deepest well of information. >> >> >> >> regards to all, >> >> >> >> craig >> > --000000000000effa7a05f38beefd Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hello everyone!

A short introduction:

My name is Mattis Lind, I live in Sweden and have a= n interest in old computers. My collection of various vintage computers can= be seen on www.datormuseum.se, u= nfortunately not updated for quite some time.
Almost 30 years ago= I bought an Intellec=C2=A08/80 on a flea-market in Stockholm for the equiv= alent=C2=A0of 10 USD. It has been sitting on the shelf since then and just = recently I thought I should do something about it. My plan is to connect it= to a teletype and perhaps run BASIC or MicroChess just for fun.=C2=A0

The Intellec was torn down into pieces and cleaned. Th= en I started to test the PSUs. The crowbar=C2=A0of the 5V PSU was set to tr= ip at almost 9V so I adjusted it down to a more reasonable level. Then I al= so found that the 5V supply itself didn't regulate at all. After some h= ead scratching I discovered that the driver transistor was leaky. With a ne= w power transistor in place it regulated fine. I put everything together an= d tried the machine with boards installed.=C2=A0

T= he front panel was acting strangely. Under certain conditions I could enter= data into memory and examine it, but it didn't work as was indicated i= n the manual. At one point it was possible to single step a one instruction= program that jumped back to itself. I checked the front=C2=A0 panel itself= . It looked like at least all switches and LEDs were working but it looked = like there was some logic on the front panel controller in the bus that was= n't doing what it was supposed to. To get access to do measurements=C2= =A0on the=C2=A0 board I needed an extender board.=C2=A0

My idea was to quickly draw one up in KiCAD. I have done quite many l= ayouts in KiCAD so I wasn't expecting it to take that long. But one obs= tacle is to get the proper measurements of the size of boards and connector= s, it takes some time to get this right and it is easy to make mistakes.

I did some googling on Intellec and found the intere= sting pages by Craig. So I contacted him on the subject of KiCAD layout for= the Intellec sized PCBs.

So this is the reason fo= r ending up here!

BTW I also have an Eberhard 1702= programmer and I also had problems with some 1702 chips. But this is my on= ly 1702 programmer so I cannot compare it with others. I thought the EPROM = was marginal.


/Mattis

Den m=C3=A5n 30 jan. 2023 kl 14:15 skrev Sid Jones <jonesthechip@logicmagic.co.uk>:<= br>
Thanks for the email, Jon.
=C2=A0
My intellec 4 mod 40 (S/N 027!) is getting a ground up refurbishment, = due=20 to having dropped off a shelf a decade or two ago...
=C2=A0
I=E2=80=99m building a high-speed tape reader simulator and I really f= ancy a crack=20 at a home-brew 1702A programmer.
=C2=A0
(Stealing from the best, of course...)
=C2=A0
What I=E2=80=99m really missing is the paper tape RAM based assembler = that came=20 with the box. Should have kept a copy of the tape when I left college!
=C2=A0
Regarding the MDS systems, I=E2=80=99ve got a MDS-800 box, no terminal= , no floppy=20 drives, but I do have a Series III and a white Series II that I was going t= o use=20 for spares. With drives.
=C2=A0
And a stack of floppies =E2=80=98obtained=E2=80=99 from various client= s. And the odd intel=20 manual or three..
=C2=A0
Perhaps it=E2=80=99ll be time for a visit to sunny Cambridge sometime = soon?
=C2=A0
And how do I join the Google group, please? These new-fangled =E2=80= =98social=20 media=E2=80=99 malarkey can get past me...
=C2=A0
Regards
=C2=A0
Sid
=C2=A0
PS 70th birthday present (to myself) pictured! Rockwell Echo cancellin= g=20 chip with Star Trek =E2=80=98Enterprise=E2=80=99 in the layers! Geek cred s= quared!
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
=C2=A0
From: Jon Hales
Sent: Monday, January 30, 2023 11:32 AM
Subject: Re: intellec 8
=C2=A0
Hi Sid, copied to Mattis and Craig=20
=C2=A0
Many thanks for your message. You are in a fortunate position to have = a=20 4/40.
=C2=A0
I was planning to write to you and Mattis, copied to Craig, to explain= =20 (briefly) where I'm coming from.
=C2=A0
About ten years ago I was looking for a 386 CPU and found an eBay sell= er in=20 UK offering an Intel Multibus board containing a 386 and 387 for about the= =20 amount I had expected to pay for the CPU. Fast forward to about 2020, when = I=20 bought a 386 board from Northwest Technical, which came with a set of=20 original=C2=A0 ROMs and a copy of the manual. I was able to get the origina= l=20 board working by copying the ROMs. Along the way I had collected several In= tel=20 Model 310 86/286 systems running Xenix and iRMX-86.
=C2=A0
I realise that Mattis was even more fortunate in buying a Intellec 8/8= 0 for=20 about the amount I paid for the 386 board.
=C2=A0
Around seven years ago I started volunteering at the Centre for Comput= ing=20 History in Cambridge (developing an archive of magnetic media, which no-one= else=20 seemed interested in preserving; I live near Cambridge). The museum already= had=20 an Intellec 8/80. I collected another 8/80 from a donor who had stored a=20 quantity of Intel development systems after they were scrapped by his emplo= yer.=20 This gave me an opportunity to partially dismantle it (for cleaning and=20 inspection) and photograph the boards and PSUs before it went to the museum= .=20 More recently, I photographed the boards and chassis of the museum's 8/= 80 to=20 copy the images to Craig. The PROM board had been adapted to 2716s.
=C2=A0
The Cambridge museum has a fully-operational Apple 1 reproduction. A f= riend=20 of the museum populated the board with period-correct chips as well as the = PSU=20 and adding a tape interface. I donated a Hitachi mono monitor to provide a= =20 display. This is a permanent exhibit, alongside an Altair 8800, an 8800b an= d an=20 Imsai 8080. Unlike the Intellec 8/80s, although they have (at least) compar= able=20 historical significance, which remain in storage. This is the background to= =20 propose an Intellec 8/80 reproduction system for the museum.
=C2=A0
Craig's initiative is an opportunity not-to-be-missed to acquire t= he basis=20 of a reproduction Intellec. As a 'data specialist', my understandin= g of=20 electronics is basic. However, I have had a good deal of success at buildin= g up=20 useful systems from bare boards. I would be ready to organise orders from= =20 JLCPCB, with which I have an account.
=C2=A0
Craig and I have been in contact for some time via an 'email group= ' called=20 Intel Devsys on Google Groups. This developed from the efforts of Bill Beec= h,=20 Richard Main and Herb Johnson (and others) to support efforts to get MDS sy= stems=20 working. There are now some members of the group in UK. I have contributed = disk=20 images, based partly on the museum's collection, and scans of various I= ntel=20 documents. Mark Ogden (ogdenpm on Github) has done much to organise the=20 collection of software and manuals. Although the emphasis has been mainly o= n=20 Series II MDS systems, it would appear a good approach to suggest you both = join=20 this group. As well as providing support to each other, the group has been= =20 successful at bringing together information on Bill Beech's Google Driv= e.
=C2=A0
Sid: I know someone who built himself a Martin Eberhard programmer for= =20 1702s. I could put you in touch with him if you want an easy way to get cod= e=20 into these chips. (I know, it would be better to do this via an Intellec or= a=20 iUP-103 Universal Programmer with the appropriate interface - I have an iUP= -103,=20 but it's only equipped for 2716s).
=C2=A0
Best regards
=C2=A0
Jon
=C2=A0
On Mon, 30 Jan 2023 at 10:34, Sid Jon= es <j= onesthechip@logicmagic.co.uk> wrote:
Thanks for the update!
=C2=A0
FYI: I=E2=80=99m refurbishing an intel intellec 4/40 that I used in = college=20 between 1974-1977.
=C2=A0
And the mission creep sets in, so I have to build a RS232-20 mA curr= ent=20 loop interface and a 1702A EPROM programmer.
=C2=A0
Use a 2372A board with flying leads to drop into the ROM monitor soc= ket,=20 to get over the bit rot in the original 1702A devices until I can program= me=20 some more!.
=C2=A0
BTW: I have a source of 1702A =E2=80=98new, old stock=E2=80=99 EPROM= s in Sweden. A nice=20 gentleman called Bjorn Lundin has a stash of 500+ !!!
=C2=A0
This will be after the case has been cleaned, de-bent and repainted.= =20 Small accident in the 1990=E2=80=99s involving a weak shelf and gravity..= .
=C2=A0
I do have a spare set of 4040/4289(?) and 4201 devices from the uni= =20 project and after being inspired by Craig=E2=80=99s work, I=E2=80=99m giv= ing some thought to a=20 =E2=80=98new=E2=80=99 CPU board for the 4040.
=C2=A0
Replace the 4x1702A with a 2732A, modern logic rather than the elect= ron=20 guzzling 3205 and other devices, socket everything and make a new drop-in= =20 board for my intel box.
=C2=A0
Madness, or what?
=C2=A0
Regards
=C2=A0
Sid
=C2=A0
Sent: Sunday, January 29, 2023 11:25 PM
Subject: intellec 8
=C2=A0

Hi Jon, Mattis, & Sid

=C2=A0

I am not sure you are all aware of each other yet= =E2=80=A6 but I=20 think everyone has some level of interest in making one or more of the=20 reproduction boards for the intellect and, since you are somewhat close= =20 together, it may make sense to order boards directly from the board house= and=20 redistribute amongst yourselves.=C2=A0 Sid and Jon are in the UK, Mattis = is in=20 Sweden=E2=80=94two of my favorite countries to visit by the way.

=C2=A0

As for the boards, I have been distracted lately b= ut hope=20 to get back to get them fully tested.=C2=A0 the PROM, RAM, Motherboard, a= nd=20 8008 CPU all look OK, I need to build and test the 8080 CPU and a simple = card=20 extender board.=C2=A0 I haven=E2=80=99t even started a front panel board = or either of=20 the I/O boards and have no intention yet to make the eprom programming=20 board.=C2=A0 I expect the remaining boards may continue to drag out, or m= aybe=20 someone else will decide to make them before me.

=C2=A0

If Sid and Mattis have not joined the intel develo= pment=20 google group, that remains to be the most centralized and deepest well of= =20 information.

=C2=A0

regards to all,

=C2=A0

craig

--000000000000effa7a05f38beefd--